{White Mage} {WTF are they}?!

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: {White Mage} {WTF are they}?!

SE should do something to give WHM/ a boost to Healing

I already stated, I don't think White Mage is broken in any sense

Um... Which is it? WHM is fine, or they still need "a boost"?



BTW, Raydeus didn't misquote you. I think this was what he was responding to:

later on, Red Mages are preferred to heal in Exp and Merit groups, because of Refresh and Convert, which is the truth.

This is a generalization (according to Raydeus) because WHM is a core job in JP parties--the condition you described is localized to non-JP population, not the overall player community.

Think of it this way: there are probably more JP players than NA players, so not wanting a WHM for main heal in exp or merit party is likely the less common mentality. That is why your statement saying RDM is the preferred main healer is a generalization, and probably an incorrect one, at that.

[Akashimo]

Re: {White Mage} {WTF are they}?!

Um... Which is it? WHM is fine, or they still need "a boost"?

I think he ment, WHM is perfect on paper, but not in the eyes of the players who apply it that are in his view NA who prefer RDM over WHM.

[Celeal]

Re: {White Mage} {WTF are they}?!

In terms of RDM main heal, I would consider the party setup, camp/mob as a whole:

RDM/WHM (main heal) + BRD/WHM + 4x DD/NIN TP-burn weak VT mobs definitely works.

RDM/WHM (main heal) + another RDM (support) + 4x DD/NIN works too, if the party is willing to work togather. Maybe RDM/WHM (main heal) + COR + 4x DD/NIN is doable (at least on paper).

However, those RDM main heal in TP-burn setup has a limited selection of camp site and mob (in my opinion). If the area is packed with parties, either the party wait for the spawn, or mix in some mobs that are not ideal for TP-burns. In this case, I would say the risk of down-time or death is higher.

I would prefer RDM (support) + WHM (main heal) setup. Not only WHM can Haste, and have more efficient cures, the camp/mob selection of the party is wider. When the area is crowded, the RDM+WHM party has the option to pull tougher mobs to keep the exp chain flowing (the risk of downtime is lower). The party's MP recovery when both RDM and WHM have Refresh at the same time is good too.

[Armando]

Re: {White Mage} {WTF are they}?!

So in the simplest way even a pld/whm can take up the role of main healing? Or maybe drk/whm? I'm sorry, but the sub does not make the absolute role of the job. It help BUILD the role with gear and food, but doesn't automatically MAKE the role. And to the 75 statements. Lets see you try whm then rdm, you'll likely change your tune. Nin, if i had the moeny, I'd lvl nin/blm to tank, honestly I would. Aside the gil draining to be effective, I love every aspect about it. After nin i would lvl pld to straight tank like any other.

Light Staff + Hospitaler's Earring: Healing Potency +15%
Auto Refresh + Parade Gorget: 2 MP/tick Refresh. Anyone can get those two things. If you have money, throw in a Vermillion Cloak, and that's already 3 MP/tick. In Aht Urhgan, 4 MP/tick. Throw in a RDM and you're looking at a permanent 7 MP/tick.

Would I do it if it was necessary and they gave me the chance? You bet.

[Raydeus]

Re: {White Mage} {WTF are they}?!

I already stated, I don't think White Mage is broken in any sense, but it's rather Healing Magic that I take issue with. Red Mage (C- Healing skill) shouldn't be able to heal back the same amount of Hit Points as White Mage (A+ Healing skill), just like on White Mage, with my C Enfeebling skill, I can't land status spells on exp mobs to save my life. That certainly makes sense, doesn't it?

I could agree with this, but it's all because of the soft caps placed on Cure spells, if SE removed caps and/or made the amount of HP recovered completely skill dependant I wouldn't have any problem with it at all. RDM already has native healing skill to begin with.

I'd be sorry for all those solo and party /WHM (like SMN) players out there though, specially since SMN is already very inefficient at healing as it is.

You were saying?

(I wasn't saying all NA parties are like that, however all the cases of WHM rejection I've seen are from NA parties... so I guess you are kinda right. )

Edit>

Think of it this way: there are probably more JP players than NA players, so not wanting a WHM for main heal in exp or merit party is likely the less common mentality. That is why your statement saying RDM is the preferred main healer is a generalization, and probably an incorrect one, at that.

Yep that's pretty much it.

[Auron517]

Re: {White Mage} {WTF are they}?!

Um... Which is it? WHM is fine, or they still need "a boost"?

I don't think White Mage is broken in any sense, but it's rather Healing Magic that I take issue with. Red Mage (C- Healing skill) shouldn't be able to heal back the same amount of Hit Points as White Mage (A+ Healing skill),

It seems that you missed that part of my post that you just quoted. That is where I have a problem, not White Mage. Please understand this.

Also, I claimed Raydeus was misquoting me because he argued that White Mage wasn't "overkill", which I never acknowledged and then preceeded to inform me on the benefits of of my own job...that's why I said it.

Not saying it was done intentionally, I just wanted to be straight with what I was posting.

[Raydeus]

Re: {White Mage} {WTF are they}?!

Also, I claimed Raydeus was misquoting me because he argued that White Mage wasn't "overkill", which I never acknowledged and then preceeded to inform me on the benefits of of my own job...that's why I said it.

No, no, I didn't mean that you thought WHM was overkill, what I meant was not to generalize thinking all other players thought WHM was overkill, simply because that isn't true at all.

Only in NA parties you'll see that happening, and contrary to what you may think NA players seem to be a minority, so they don't really reflect the state of the game and/or the player mentality.


So, I still think SE shouldn't adjust jobs just because some NA don't know how to play with a WHM, JP parties are doing great with them.

[Icemage]

Re: {White Mage} {WTF are they}?!

Re: Healing Magic
As a WHM main, I have always found Healing Magic to be amazingly useless. You don't get hit if you're doing your job right, and even when you do, all the Healing Magic skill in the world won't save your spell if you're fighting anything above Toughs.

While WHM doesn't really have too much of a design problem at the moment, Healing Magic itself is horrendously broken and pointless. When a BLM/WHM can cast Cure III with a Light Staff for almost as much as I can as WHM75 aside from my Noble's Tunic's +10% cure potency, there's a problem.

Re: Refusal to play healing on non-WHM jobs.
People need to get their snobbishness and stuff it. Deliberately refusing to heal when on a job that can do so effectively hurts party dynamics and reduces your party's potential. If you like earning less XP overall because of just being stubborn, knock yourself out, but if you do so you've lost the right to complain about why your party is sucking.

I've played WHM, RDM, and BRD to 75. I spent 98% of my time on RDM main healing. It works. I spent 98% of my time on Bard doing backup healing in between songs. It works. Parties just work better with more recovery power, and refusing to do so out of laziness is just not acceptable in my book. If you don't want to do these things, do everyone else a favor and don't play the job.

Re: RDM main healing
Sorry, I'm going to have to disagree and say that Red Mages are amazingly good main healers. As good as WHM? Not always. But better in some respects.

Good red mages have little to no need for rest, and thus can react almost instantly to crisis situations. Convert + Refresh provides the RDM not only with a nearly limitless pool of MP to draw from, but also improves the support power of all other spellcaster jobs in the party. In an XP party, Cure IV's enmity is not an issue except for the first few levels after you gain access to it. Anyone who thinks it is needs to learn what Crow/Raven gear, Blink, and Stoneskin are.


Icemage

[Vyuru]

Re: {White Mage} {WTF are they}?!

I agree, whm are damn fine healers, once they get their regen merits from what I hear they become ungodly powerful as a main healer. However their Healing Magic skill has little to no point to it. Do they need a tweak? No, they are really good. Should they get a tweak? Maybe.

Alot of the jobs get it really good at 75 with merits and meritable abilities, the problem for some people is getting there in the first place.

However, on the subject of a job with healing abilities and mana, in regards to Renaissance's post, I agree. A blm should not be asked to main heal when a rdm is in the party. Backup heal? Yes when needed. I've read enough of his posts over on Alla to know that he would have been happy to backup heal, so that was not the issue, which some people seem to be implying in their posts.

but you simply cannot make the blanket statement that you won't heal. Because this game was built to utilize subjobs.

I'm agreeing with you more or less up to this point, but he said that he had to take blm to 32. Now I've lvl'd blm up to 30, and I would NOT even consider main healing a party until level 28 when I get Cure II (blm/rdm, dunno if whm get it sooner) Even then I would be hesistant to main heal until I got Regen, that spell just helps wayyy too much.

I put blm with smn in the main healing category, I'll only ask them to do it as a last ditch effort at getting a healer, and even then I'm probably going to come as drg/mage to help keep things smooth unless we have a ninja tank and are fighting VERY ninja friendly mobs.

[Nazo]

Re: {White Mage} {WTF are they}?!

I agree completely about healing magic being useless. Giving us auto-regen is a double insult, being worse than useless. If I'm doing a good job I don't get hit, worse it breaks medicine rings latent.
Personally as a whm I'd like to see some kind of ability / trait that gives us better ability to manage our mp (maybe a pray like ability that restores a small amount of mp / hp for the whole party) or some kind of melee useful buff that no-one else has which would give a more 'positive' feel to whm's contribution.
I don't have an issue that people are willing to party without a dedicated healer class, but I do think it sucks that no-one would be willing to party with me without a refresher to back me up, I don't think I should be rendered almost useless because I don't have a 'battery' with me.

[Lmnop]

Re: {White Mage} {WTF are they}?!

So in the simplest way even a pld/whm can take up the role of main healing? Or maybe drk/whm? I'm sorry, but the sub does not make the absolute role of the job. It help BUILD the role with gear and food, but doesn't automatically MAKE the role.

hahaha main healer who doesn't give a shit when he gets hate. I'd let it fly. You can play semantics on my post all you want, dude. Should a drk/war be main tank because he has provoke? Maybe the SMN should sub WAR and tank. Maybe if a BLM buys Sniper Rings I'll let him melee and never cast spells just like all those crappy Drks who sit on full mp tanks. While we're at it, I'ma start main healing as war/whm. Sound good?

No. Nins tank because they can /war. Drgs don't typically sub mages for exp parties because they don't need to and because their damage is so much better with a melee sub. So it's obvious that the reason a Blm subs whm is to contribute to the party more than damage. This is made painfully obvious by the fact that the only time I've ever been outparsed by a BLM on all my melee jobs I've taken to 37 was Samurai. And that's because I was waiting on a crappy SC partner and thus limiting myself.

It's funny that I'm picking on BLM in this post, because it was actually the last job in my mind during my last post. Indeed, Vyuru, I never meant to attack Renaissance. When I read his post, I got the idea that it was the RDM being present that ticked him off. Not being asked to main heal. I'm actually thinking mostly of SMNs (even though I agree they're very inefficient at it) and of course, RDMs.

I suppose also, in the back of my mind, I wasn't just attacking main healing. I've long had a beef with non-WHMs never even considering cure spells. My favorite is the nuking Rdm. It never dawns across this character's mind to toss out a cure 3 after a mob WS. Another good one is the BLM that completely forgets that he has -na spells. Seriously, Black mages are stuck doing pretty much nothing for so much of the fight, that they should be the ones with the clearest understanding of the flow of battle and thus, the ones with the greatest knowledge of how to apply their assets. But no, they stand up and cast bignukega III, sit down and go afk.

And to the 75 statements. Lets see you try whm then rdm, you'll likely change your tune. Nin, if i had the moeny, I'd lvl nin/blm to tank, honestly I would. Aside the gil draining to be effective, I love every aspect about it. After nin i would lvl pld to straight tank like any other.

I forgot about this part. I'm not sure I'm making perfect sense of this quote... by "75 statements" I'm going to assume you mean my opinion on leveling whm to 75 and then main healing another job? I'm going to assume so and move onto the next part: "Lets see you try whm then rdm, you'll likely change your tune." ... yeah that means nothing to me. I've leveled 200 levels of DD jobs when the only thing I truely enjoy is tanking. I still need to level Drk and Blu, so I'll be seeing that side of the coin in the future, and i'll play it the best I possibly can. That statement is simply "Ad Hominem." You're attacking me and my experience to disprove my argument. This game isnt' rocket science. I don't need certification and qualification exams to understand how cure macros work.

As for the part about nin/blm and leveling PLD, I guess all I have to tell you is good luck. =) Aside from being expensive, if you're tanking you have to really keep on your toes about not letting shadows drop. It's surprisingly easy to lose your timing because you're casting other spells. But it's pretty kick-ass. I had a nin/blm @61ish doing like 30% more damage than my Warrior. That same party also had a rediculous Ranger who I'm 98% certain was using windower and distance plug-ins as he'd always run to exact spots, and he always knew when to WS to try to land a SC with other people who hadn't even reported their tp. It was a humbling experience to be 3rd place. o.o

[Telera]

Re: {White Mage} {WTF are they}?!

As a summoner, I appreciate the people who actually make an effort to let us do something besides be a nurse. Now, lets be clear, I like healing. But there comes a point, especially with certain party/mob set ups that even my Vermy and Light Staff aren't keeping my MP happy enough or keeping the tanks healed enough. I have been in parties with a whm healer and a rdm healer and both do exceptionally better at keeping the party alive than my paltry CureIII spamming. There's been plenty of parties where all I do is cast it back to back until I inevitably pull hate, get nearly gang-raped, then get to do it all over again. There comes a point where that Summoner and that Black Mage cannot and should not be expected to perform healing as efficiently as a job that has *main job* power behind the spell. If only because of access to higher tiers of Regen and Cure that make things more efficient and less hate wobbly in the long run.

However, again, I have no issue with healing. I'll be main if I have to, but it more oft than not past 55 has slowed the party down massively, moreso than if we'd had a whm or rdm. I'd much rather play a support role to a whm, and the parties where I've been able to do that (I spend 2-3 nights w/ the same whm from 57-60) we were both much happier and able to keep the party alive to keep chains flowing. Hastega, Stoneskin, Blink for the party, saves him a ton of MP alone. Free Carby for helping DD when I'm not needed for the previously mentioned spells.

[Renaissance 2K]

Re: {White Mage} {WTF are they}?!

I know it kinda makes me sound like a dick but...
That whole "I leveled WHM to 75 already, I don't want to main heal on X job too" argument... I don't like it. That's like "I already leveled PLD to 75, I didn't level NIN to tank." Maybe someone will say that's not a fair comparison, considering that NIN's main job is tank now. Ok, let's use WAR then. "I've already leveled PLD to 75, I'm not leveling WAR to tank." Which is stupid, because I would trust that WAR tanking more than a RNG-turned-WAR.

Actually, it's more like a SAM saying "I already leveled PLD to 75" after being asked to tank. The point is... the job could probably do it reasonably well at certain levels with certain gear, but it's extremely rude of some people that just flat-out expect it.

And to all those people complaining about PLD/WHM in a main healer role, they have Cure IV, Protect IV, and Shell IV; they have access to a lot of MP+ equipment; they're more survivable; and they can semi-easily obtain two pieces of full-time Refresh equipment to stack with native Auto Refresh, Sanction, and whatever other Refresh/Ballad buffs you may be given.

[Raydeus]

Re: {White Mage} {WTF are they}?!

PLD doesn't get Shell IV, only III, and doesn't get many of the +hMP gear it would definitely need for the role either. But I would asume a Refresh'd/Ballad'd PLD could do decently well as a main healer.

If I'd like to play the job that way is a different story, but I guess it can be done.


However, without having Convert no one should expect more than Protectra II/Shellra II except for the tank (if any), simply because just getting the MP back from using ProShell IV/III on everyone would be pretty tough to do every 30 minutes.

Even as RDM I try to avoid doing that and I have Convert.

[Icemage]

Re: {White Mage} {WTF are they}?!

Actually, it's more like a SAM saying "I already leveled PLD to 75" after being asked to tank. The point is... the job could probably do it reasonably well at certain levels with certain gear, but it's extremely rude of some people that just flat-out expect it.

Ninjas weren't designed to tank, but everyone and their brother expects them to.

If the job you are playing is good at a particular role at the level you are at, and you refuse to assume that role when asked to, you are hurting yourself and your party. It's not rude to expect it if it really is an effective use of your job. It's common sense.

And to all those people complaining about PLD/WHM in a main healer role, they have Cure IV, Protect IV, and Shell IV; they have access to a lot of MP+ equipment; they're more survivable; and they can semi-easily obtain two pieces of full-time Refresh equipment to stack with native Auto Refresh, Sanction, and whatever other Refresh/Ballad buffs you may be given.

PLD as a main healer is alright IF you have the MP gear to pull it off. Playing PLD as main healer is akin to playing Galka WHM without Regen spells. Very tricky since you have no access to -enmity gears, but that's not as much of an issue at higher levels when things start dying too fast for enmity to be a concern.


Icemage